Transparency vs commission politics
Rogan argues referees should speak openly to improve accountability and education. McCarthy explains commissions fear added scrutiny and controversy when officials comment publicly.
JRE MMA Show #179 with Josh Thompson & "Big" John McCarthy
Source description
Joe sits down with Josh Thompson, a retired champion mixed martial artist and fight analyst, and Big John McCarthy, a veteran mixed martial arts referee, Professional Fighters League commentator, and founder of Big John McCarthy’s C.O.M.M.A.N.D., an internationally recognized …
Joe sits down with Josh Thompson, a retired champion mixed martial artist and fight analyst, and Big John McCarthy, a veteran mixed martial arts referee, Professional Fighters League commentator, and founder of Big John McCarthy’s C.O.M.M.A.N.D., an internationally recognized training school for referees and judges in mixed martial arts. Josh and John host the “Weighing In” podcast.www.youtube.com/@WeighingInhttps://linktr.ee/weighinginpodcastwww.mmareferee.com Perplexity: Download the app or ask Perplexity anything at https://pplx.ai/rogan. 50% off your first box at https://thefarmersdog.com/rogan! Use code ROGAN at https://BlueChew.com to get 10% OFF + Free Overnight Shipping on your first order. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices
Key Topics
- Transparency vs commission politics
- Ruleset inconsistency across states
- Debating banned techniques and real injury risk
- Grounded knees and stomps in MMA
- Pride-era aggression and Shogun’s peak
- Emelianenko brothers and fight psychology
- Fedor’s speed, efficiency, and all-around game
- Blueprint for beating Cro Cop
- Crocop’s left kick and elite kickboxing translation
- Aldo’s takedown defense and footwork origins
- Weight cutting as MMA’s “grossest” problem
- Diminishing returns of massive cuts
- McGregor at 145 and extreme dehydration
- Max Holloway’s weight-class swings and KO risk
- Huge fight-night rehydration examples
- Rumble Johnson and chronic weight chaos
- Arlovski’s longevity through style change
- Fight stoppages, cuts, and medical risk
- Rico Verhoeven vs Usyk controversy
- Modern mouthpiece procedures in boxing
- Steel cups and grappling leverage
- Herb Dean stopping Sylvia vs Mir arm break
- Fighting injured and “let him fight” culture
- Judging, split decisions, and perspective limits
- Betting integrity and fight manipulation risk
- Referee and judge training demands
- Fighter pay structure and win bonuses
- Financial discipline and fighter lifestyle
- Motorcycle risk and athlete longevity
- Trash talk as a career strategy
- Heavyweight prospects and division shallowness
- Heavyweight limit rationale and super-heavyweights
- PED culture, “enhanced” events, and ethics in combat
- Genetics and brain trauma susceptibility
- Brain recovery timelines after knockouts
- Freddie Roach’s career arc and punch damage
- CTE prevalence concerns beyond the pros
- Referee split-second decisions in MMA
- “Threat of the takedown” changing striking
- Islam Makhachev’s striking and mixed threats
- Topuria’s KO run and contextual “asterisks”
- Volkanovski’s short-notice rematch decision
- The psychology of retirement and next chapters
- Khabib’s dominance and discipline culture
- Dagestan camp habits versus partying culture
- High-level striking “levels” and specialist advantage
- Welterweight landscape: matchups and dark horses
- Aaron Pico’s development and composure
- Joe Schilling foul controversy and quitting decision
- Bare-knuckle boxing rules and regulatory perception
- UFC’s marketing challenge with weekly events
- Fighting at the White House and outdoor event risks
- Ibogaine advocacy and veteran mental health claims
- California homelessness, public safety, and policy incentives
- Tax policy, fraud, and government spending skepticism
- New fighters versus “old dogs” staying elite
Ruleset inconsistency across states
They criticize how rule differences like 12–6 elbows vary by jurisdiction, citing New Jersey as an example. They argue it creates unsafe confusion for fighters and referees mid-career.
Debating banned techniques and real injury risk
They debate why some strikes are restricted while others remain legal, comparing knee damage to knockouts. They argue selective bans often lack consistency with actual harm in fights.
Grounded knees and stomps in MMA
McCarthy supports grounded knees in some contexts but opposes stomps as rarely effective unless an opponent is already hurt. They contrast how rings and cages change the danger profile.
Pride-era aggression and Shogun’s peak
They reminisce about Pride’s style and how Shogun Rua’s performance versus Rampage redefined him for many fans. They also talk about the hyper-aggressive Curitiba camp reputation.
Emelianenko brothers and fight psychology
They contrast Alexander’s chaotic persona with Fedor’s stoic demeanor, using tattoos and body language as examples. They also note the Soviet-style relaxed-then-explode boxing rhythm.
Fedor’s speed, efficiency, and all-around game
McCarthy shares training with Fedor and emphasizes his explosiveness, deceptive posture, and endurance. They highlight his transitions between striking, throws, and fast submissions like armbars.
Blueprint for beating Cro Cop
They explain how Fedor pressured Cro Cop backward, reduced kicking space, and leveraged grappling threat to neutralize the left kick. They note it required unique skills and confidence to execute.
Crocop’s left kick and elite kickboxing translation
They call Cro Cop’s left kick the best in MMA history and discuss why his explosive style transferred to MMA better than some rhythm-based kickboxers. They compare other standout kickers like Barboza.
Aldo’s takedown defense and footwork origins
They argue Jose Aldo’s takedown defense remains underappreciated, referencing fights with relentless wrestlers. They connect Aldo’s footwork and conditioning to soccer-like stop-and-go demands.
Weight cutting as MMA’s “grossest” problem
They call extreme weight cuts dangerous and irrational compared to other sports’ nutrition focus. They explore proposals like random weigh-ins and strict walk-around limits to reduce abuse.
Diminishing returns of massive cuts
They discuss how severe dehydration can reduce durability even if size advantages look intimidating. Examples include Pereira at 185 and the tradeoff between strength and speed.
McGregor at 145 and extreme dehydration
They recall how gaunt McGregor looked at 145 yet still fought fast and sharp, highlighting youth as a factor. They argue that approach becomes unsustainable with age.
Max Holloway’s weight-class swings and KO risk
They debate Holloway moving up to 155, then cutting back to 145 for a title shot, and how that may have contributed to his first knockout. They compare it to Roy Jones Jr’s post-heavyweight drop-off.
Huge fight-night rehydration examples
They cite cases of fighters gaining 20+ pounds after weigh-ins, including a reported 27-pound rebound on a recent California card. They frame it as evidence that the system incentivizes dangerous extremes.
Rumble Johnson and chronic weight chaos
They use Rumble as the cautionary archetype of drastic cuts that repeatedly strain the body. McCarthy describes the long-term kidney and health risks from repeated cycles.
Arlovski’s longevity through style change
They credit Andrei Arlovski for adapting from power punching to a safer volume style to extend his career. They highlight specific wins and how reduced risk preserved him over time.
Fight stoppages, cuts, and medical risk
They explain why some stoppages happen due to cuts near sensitive structures like the tear duct, not just visible bleeding. They emphasize that the reason can be misunderstood by viewers.
Rico Verhoeven vs Usyk controversy
They argue scoring and officiating decisions were questionable and believe Rico was winning. They also criticize the stoppage sequence and how time lost on a mouthpiece can distort fairness.
Modern mouthpiece procedures in boxing
McCarthy says current practice should be to reinsert the mouthpiece quickly rather than walking it to a corner to rinse. He frames the older approach as outdated and competitively unfair.
Steel cups and grappling leverage
They argue metal cups should be illegal because they can injure opponents and create unfair leverage in positions like armbars. They cite examples and how equipment can affect submissions.
Herb Dean stopping Sylvia vs Mir arm break
They recount the moment Mir broke Tim Sylvia’s forearm and Herb stopped it despite crowd boos. McCarthy describes how officials confirmed the break and why letting it continue would be dangerous.
Fighting injured and “let him fight” culture
They criticize commentators and fans who want fighters to continue with serious injuries. They argue the sport is not worth irreversible harm and that officials must intervene.
Judging, split decisions, and perspective limits
McCarthy explains how judging sightlines and limited angles can produce disagreements without corruption. He argues five judges does not fix fundamentals if judge quality is inconsistent.
Betting integrity and fight manipulation risk
They discuss how a single outlier judge can swing bets and create incentives for corruption. They reference investigations and note the UFC has faced scrutiny over betting anomalies.
Referee and judge training demands
They emphasize officiating is harder than most fans think and requires constant education. McCarthy describes building courses and the need for elite officials on major fights.
Fighter pay structure and win bonuses
Rogan argues win bonuses can unfairly cut pay in bad decisions and that fighters should be paid to compete. They debate alternatives like higher show money and separate finish incentives.
Financial discipline and fighter lifestyle
They praise fighters who live frugally and criticize reckless spending on cars and luxuries. They argue careers are short and comfort can dull competitive urgency.
Motorcycle risk and athlete longevity
They discuss how riding motorcycles is a high-probability injury risk, especially for fighters. They cite examples and the saying that all riders eventually go down.
Trash talk as a career strategy
They compare modern button-pushers to the Chael and McGregor model and discuss how controversy creates opportunities. They also note risks when hype exceeds skill or discipline.
Heavyweight prospects and division shallowness
They discuss how a shallow heavyweight roster can fast-track top wrestlers into title contention. They note raw prospects still need time to learn striking defense and pacing.
Heavyweight limit rationale and super-heavyweights
They question the 265-pound cap and argue bigger athletes should be allowed with proper structure. They propose creating a separate class above 225 to accommodate true giants.
PED culture, “enhanced” events, and ethics in combat
They discuss the “enhanced games” concept and how it functions as marketing for hormone programs. They debate the added ethical stakes when performance enhancement increases damage in fighting.
Genetics and brain trauma susceptibility
They reference APOE4 as a modifier that may increase CTE severity after repetitive head impacts. They stress outcomes vary widely among athletes even with similar exposure.
Brain recovery timelines after knockouts
They argue fighters often return too quickly after concussions and need longer rest periods. They cite examples from boxing where extended layoffs helped restore durability.
Freddie Roach’s career arc and punch damage
They discuss Eddie Futch urging Roach to retire and how continued fighting worsened long-term issues. They also mention Roach’s later success as a trainer informed by that experience.
CTE prevalence concerns beyond the pros
They discuss claims that signs of brain trauma appear in many levels of contact sports, including younger athletes. They frame it as a broad public health issue, not only an NFL problem.
Referee split-second decisions in MMA
McCarthy describes how MMA removes the decision time boxing provides because follow-up strikes arrive instantly. He gives examples of fighters appearing out but then moving or recovering unexpectedly.
“Threat of the takedown” changing striking
They explain how wrestling danger disrupts a striker’s rhythm and opens shots that would not land in pure kickboxing. They cite classic examples like Randleman vs Cro Cop and Khabib vs McGregor.
Islam Makhachev’s striking and mixed threats
They argue Islam is more dangerous on the feet than he is credited for and cite head-kick finishes. They emphasize that opponents focusing on grappling can be caught by his stand-up.
Topuria’s KO run and contextual “asterisks”
They praise Topuria’s streak while noting circumstances like opponents coming off knockouts or major weight cuts. They argue Charles Oliveira’s loss is the cleanest data point among them.
Volkanovski’s short-notice rematch decision
They criticize taking a high-risk rematch soon after a knockout and argue trusted people should protect fighters from themselves. They connect camp intensity and travel to inadequate brain recovery.
The psychology of retirement and next chapters
They praise fighters who leave on their own terms and discuss how identity shifts after competition. Examples include Khabib and Dustin choosing family and life stability.
Khabib’s dominance and discipline culture
They highlight Khabib’s consistency, humility, and year-round training habits as the foundation of his dominance. They discuss how fame disrupts many champions, but not him.
Dagestan camp habits versus partying culture
They contrast the team’s constant training and avoidance of nightlife with other fighters’ drinking and recovery issues. They argue alcohol and partying quietly degrade performance and durability.
High-level striking “levels” and specialist advantage
They discuss how elite Muay Thai and kickboxing experience creates timing and positional mastery that MMA generalists struggle to match. They cite fighters like Pereira and other striking specialists as examples.
Welterweight landscape: matchups and dark horses
They debate how different contenders match up against Islam and each other, emphasizing style clashes. They also spotlight less-known elite talent from outside the UFC who could shake up divisions.
Aaron Pico’s development and composure
They describe Pico’s early losses as over-aggression and pressure to prove himself. They praise later performances for calmer pacing and smarter transitions that better showcase his skill.
Joe Schilling foul controversy and quitting decision
They analyze the headbutt foul, point deduction, and restart positioning in Schilling’s fight. McCarthy argues the referee was trying to restore the position properly, but Schilling got emotional and chose to stop.
Bare-knuckle boxing rules and regulatory perception
McCarthy explains he wrote BKFC rules and argues commissions overreact to bare fists despite allowing shins, knees, and elbows in MMA. He frames bare-knuckle as a viable niche where certain fighters can thrive.
UFC’s marketing challenge with weekly events
They argue constant scheduling makes it harder to build stars and reach casual fans, even when fight-night cards deliver great action. They note brand trust keeps casual viewers tuning in despite unfamiliar names.
Fighting at the White House and outdoor event risks
They debate the idea of hosting a major card outdoors, highlighting heat, bugs, lighting, and dehydration as competitive variables. They argue championship fights should happen in controlled indoor environments.
Ibogaine advocacy and veteran mental health claims
Rogan describes pushing for ibogaine access as a treatment option for PTSD and traumatic brain injury, emphasizing veteran need and bipartisan appeal. They frame it as a rare issue where political barriers were overcome quickly.
California homelessness, public safety, and policy incentives
They discuss visible deterioration in parts of California and argue current approaches enable addiction and instability. They criticize incentives and spending accountability, and argue treatment and enforcement should be prioritized.
Tax policy, fraud, and government spending skepticism
They debate tax thresholds, capital gains incentives, and the idea of untaxed lower incomes to stimulate spending. They also claim large-scale fraud and waste drive distrust more than tax rates themselves.
New fighters versus “old dogs” staying elite
They discuss why veterans like Poirier and Gaethje remain hard to beat and argue skill, mindset, and experience keep them dangerous. They frame many young contenders as talented but not yet complete at elite level.